Hej alle
Har længe ønsket at lave en sådan tråd, så ser lige hvordan i tager imod den.
Da mine pokeregenskaber er begrænsede, så kan jeg desværre ikke tilbyde at være coach, men håber lidt på at nogle af jer habile pokerspillere har lyst. Der er i hvert fald mange der kommenterer på hænder herinde.
Mine tanker er, at jeg staker et par stykker med lavt buy in 10 stk. -> o,25 - 1,1 sng. Når de første 3 er spillet lægges HH ind i tråden for alle tre. Herefter vil alle have mulighed for at kommentere på det.
Efter en dags tid køres 3 nye med samme tanke og til sidst 4 mere.
Det betyder at spillerne kan få mulighed for at få løftet deres spil og vi måske kan undgå tråde med sure opstød!
Vil gerne have nogle tilbagemeldinger fra jer alle. Kan det være interessant for de habile spillere, at bruge lidt tid på at kigge i tråden og er der nogen spillere som har lyst til at få løftet deres spil og få luset lidt ud i småfejlene. (ville selv have sagt ja til det i foråret).
I er også velkommen til at komme med ideer til projektet :-)
Eneste krav fra mig:
Tråden hvor spillerne lægger deres hænder ud forbliver uden dumme kommentarer og sure opstød. Dette vil i så fald medføre et ej stake på min stakeliste.....
Mener ikke at sure opstød hjælper til med at fremme ens spil!!
Ser frem til at høre lidt fra jer..... :-)
hilsen
Flemming
Stake+analyse? Eksperthjælp søges
Fin ide.
Har skrevet lidt om det før, og det er relativt vigtigt at i det mindste have kendskab til ICM i forbindelse med bobbel spil især, hvilket man er udsat for langt oftere i sng end man er i MTT.
anyway at læse om og forstå icm i praksis vil fikse RIGTIG mange leeks hos rigtig mange folk herinde, inklusiv mig selv da jeg som oftest spiller sng bare for at tilte af fra mit mtt spil, men når jeg tager mine beslutninger udfra std sund fornuft, og icm har det en betydelig indvirken på resultaterne.
In its simplest form ICM is a way of representing your current equity in a prize pool based on the relative stack sizes of the remaining players and the distribution of that prize pool among them.
At the start of a 10 player SNG with equal stacks of 1000 chips and a prize pool of $100 distributed in the standard 50%/30%/20% format everyone has an equity of $10. Skill differences, cards and blinds are not involved - the numbers simply state what each player’s current stack is worth.
By the time we get to the bubble there are usually 4 players with different stack sizes, now each player’s equity in the $100 prize pool is different, we can work out a snapshot of each players equity by calculating their chance of finishing in each of the 4 remaining positions (see next section).
SNG Hot Tip
This is where ICM starts to have a practical application to your poker strategy. If you know what your current equity is you can use this to make decisions based on how much extra equity you will either gain or lose by taking certain actions (usually pushing all in or calling an all in at this stage). For example if you have 24% equity and will lose all of this by calling an all-in you need to balance this with what equity you potentially gain by winning the hand. This is often less than you stand to lose – for example doubling up might increase your equity by 12%, now instead of judging your winning chances against the range of hands your opponent could have pushed with you instead judge your equity risk against equity reward then look the range of your opponents hands compared to your holding. If you think you are 60% favorite against your opponents range but are risking $24 to win $12 then it makes sense to fold your hand – the equity risked is not compensated by the potential gain in this situation.
This is the key to using ICM: If you take positive expectation situations you will win over time. Conversely if you take negative expectation situations you will lose... lets put it in numbers to be even clearer!
You have 24% equity and are 60/40 favorite (an estimate of course) to your opponents range when he pushes all in ahead of you. If you win and double up you gain $12 additional equity, if you lose you are out in 4th (equity = $0).
So after 100 hands....
60 Times you win and have $36 equity 60*36 = $2160
40 Times you lose and have $0 equity.40*0 = $0
So at the end of 100 tries you have $2160/100 or $21.6 in equity - the play costs you $2.40c each time you make it when compared to folding!!! Let me ask a question - is your ROI above 24%??
How is Prize Pool Equity Calculated?
No mystery here, each remaining player at the bubble has a chance to finish in any of the 4 remaining positions... to work out current $ equity we need to calculate the chance of each position for the 4 players.
Here is how it is done (will try to keep as simple as possible), the 4 players have stacks of 5000 / 2500 / 1500 / 1000. We Start with the big stack, based on chips alone he has a 50% chance of finishing 1st and taking the $50 for 1st place, that is $25 in equity.
Next we assume big stack indeed got 1st and work out what % chance the other players have of finishing 2nd / 3rd / 4th (based on % of chips in play after we exclude the big stacks chips). So the guy with 2500 chips now has 50% of the remaining chips and thus a 50% chance of finishing 2nd. Repeat for each place.
We are now part of the way there! Next we start over and look at the 2nd stacks chance of finishing 1st (25%) and then work out the other stacks chances of taking 2nd / 3rd / 4th based on their chip stacks. Repeat for the other stacks...
At the end of the exercise you have worked out each stack’s chances of finishing in each position and can so calculate their total equity as an average of their chance of each finishing position and the payout for that position.
No need to calculate this manually, there are many on-line ICM calculators available. Link below is an excellent example. www.chillin411.com/icmcalc.php
If you take one thing from this section it should be that doubling your chip stack does not usually double your prize pool equity... I strongly suggest readers who are new to this change stack sizes in a calculator and see what effect moving the chips around has on each players $ equity... this understanding is vital to the next step - using ICM at the table!
What Other Information is Needed in order to use ICM at the bubble?
The first thing to mention is that some information is missing here - you can not base decisions on $ equity calculations without having an understanding of relative strength of hands against ranges of hands that your opponents might push with.
For example, you have pocket 10's and face an all in from the big stack at the bubble, based on $ equity you need 65% against his range of hands and estimate that range as any pair, any ace, K7 suited + or any 2 cards 10 or above... you need to know whether you have the required edge in advance. We Suggest ‘Pokerstove’ as a good starting point if you have not learned these.
Secondly you need to estimate that range of hands which your opponents will push all in with or call your all in bets with. Without this your $ equity knowledge is useless. For example if player A will call with 65% of hands you can not profitably push into him to steal blinds with as wide a range as someone who is only calling with top 10%. Accurately estimating bubble push and call ranges is a key component of profitable SNG play – see the other SNG Planet Articles on this topic.
Once you can estimate ranges the next step is to get an ICM calculator such as Sit and Go Power Tools (several others available such as ‘SNG Wizz’). You input the stack sizes, blind sizes and your estimates of pushing / calling ranges and these tools tell you whether your push or call has a positive or negative expectation. These Tools are worth the $80ish price tag many times over. For more information see our comprehensive Poker Tools section.)
What ICM Can Not Do
Important - ICM is no magic bullet, it helps you make good bubble decisions based on prize pool equity decisions that will give you an edge long term - but that is all!
ICM does not account for Blinds properly, for example the short stack is next in the BB and is all-in, you are fairly sure of 20% equity if he busts... ignore the range ICM tells you to call the big stack with, tighten up further!
ICM does not take skill differences between the players. If you are outclassed at a table you may have a better chance of winning by taking a gamble early, conversely if you outmatch your opposition it may pay to decline a small +$ev move early to wait for a better spot later.
Understanding ICM can not save you from hideous bubble calls. We have all seen them right, someone gambling with their 23% equity with J6 suited when the math would show clearly that they needed 70% against their opponents range.
It is up to you to spot these players and adjust accordingly - nothing is going to stop some people from spewing both their equity and yours to the players not in the hand!! Be particularly aware of your own image at the table, pushing all in 2 or 3 times in a row and winning the blinds is great - be aware that the 3rd or 4th push might very well be called by a weak holding and make sure that your $equity edge justifies the risk against a much looser calling range.
Hej Live
Tak for dit indlæg. Mener bestemt det er brugbart :-)
Min oprindelige tanke med dette indlæg, var at give stakes til folk der havde brug for en hjælpende hånd til deres pokerspil.
Folk med negativ roi som gerne vil have vendt skuden.....
For at gøre det, er det nødvendigt at se de hænder der bliver spillet og få dem analyseret. Da jeg ikke er en super haj til NLH, så tænkte jeg at folk måske havde lyst til at bidrage med det, da mange alligevel tjekker trådende og af og til kommer med kommentarer til spillet.
Havde ikke tænkt dette skulle være en overskudsforretning for mig (deal 50/50 uden buy in), men en hjælp til dem der gerne ville have løftet deres spil.
Hvis denne forklaring er bedre, så håber jeg at der kommer flere indlæg - ellers lader jeg tråden dø hen og droppe min tanke.
Hilsen
Flemming
@fs - god ide - og sundt, at du ikke forventer en overskudsforretning fra Day 1 :)
Det kunne være brugbart at opstille meget snævre rammer for projektet, som du også er inde på.
* Hvor mange SNG's skal spilles?
* BUY-IN (Jeg tænker nok at 0,25 $ er i den lave ende, selv for begyndere, hvis det handler om at spille A-game. Men måske er jeg blevet limit-blind efter for meget grinding)
* Turbo eller regular blinds. For mig personligt har det virket godt at begynde med regular blinds for at træne disciplinen omkring fold af marginale hænder og thrash-hænder preflop. Plus man får flere hænder når bordet bliver shorthanded og heads up og derfor mere træning i disse specielle situationer
*Antal spillere. Der er måske en pointe i at starte op med 9/18/27 spillere så der ofte bliver mulighed for at træne shorthand spillet.
*ICM - Værdifuldt værktøj - men svært for den helt grønne spiller, som stadig ikke har helt styr på at tælle outs og beregne pot odds.
Nå, det var lidt tanker herfra
Hej DrNoe
Tak for dit indlæg.
Du opstiller nogle kriterier som jeg har taget til efterretning. Bl.a. Det omkring regular blinds og antal spillere. Tror det er den rigtige vej frem...
Med hensyn til antal spillede sng, så tror jeg også at der måske skal flere skud til end 10, men er ikke helt sikker på hvor mange.
For mig handler denne tråd omkring forbedring af sit pokerspil og ikke så meget omkring buy in. Derfor vil jeg hellere vente med projektet indtil antallet af stakere går ned herinde.... der er måske for mange i øjeblikket til at denne tråd er interessant.
Mine tanker for nu....
Hilsen
Flemming